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Monarchy Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 15:14:10 [Preview] No. 24725
This is a thread about the discussion of monarchy.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 15:39:59 [Preview] No.24726 del
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Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 16:43:11 [Preview] No.24728 del
>>24726
You think democracy is a better form of governence?


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 16:46:26 [Preview] No.24729 del
>>24728
Democracy and monarchy aren't mutually exclusive. Right, constitutional monarchy?


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 17:07:43 [Preview] No.24730 del
>>24729
Honestly this place is just a democracy monarchs have no true power. Honestly the monarchy over here needs to change.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 17:10:09 [Preview] No.24731 del
>>24730
just wait until King Charles takes over and executes his powers that the magna carta allows.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 17:20:14 [Preview] No.24732 del
>>24730
So? Our president doesn't hold true power either.
The opposite of monarchy is republic. They are governmental forms, democracy is a system which can operate under both.
Under the two forms three types of decision making possible: by one (king or dictator), by few (aristocrats/patricians), by many (demos).
And to refer to this: >>24726 , when things go sideways both can become tyranny, oligarchy or ochlocracy.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 17:21:23 [Preview] No.24733 del
But seriously this is politics and would have fitted into the politics thread.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 18:11:43 [Preview] No.24734 del
I can understand why people would take a liking to ideologies like monarchy in these days of failed democracy, but I personally don't like the idea that one person is fit to rule more than anyone else just because they happened to be born into some richfag family. Saying that, our current system isn't much different as becoming a ruler in any system requires a fuckton of nepotism.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 18:18:15 [Preview] No.24736 del
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>>24734
>ideologies like monarchy
It's a governmental form not an ideology.
Autocracy is what's comparable with democracy.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 18:30:50 [Preview] No.24738 del
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>>24736
I'm aware as I was reading your previous posts, just couldn't think of a better word.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 18:38:21 [Preview] No.24739 del
>>24730
>have no true power
ehm what

the british monarchy is extremely powerful


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 19:42:41 [Preview] No.24753 del
>>24731
Then fuck us all over by importing endless amounts of muslims?
>>24734
People see monarchy as superior because when functioning correctly it is superior to democracy in everyway possible. For instance the monarch is like a father and son relationship where the nation is the monarchs house and it's his job to defend it.
>>24739
I didn't say they had no power I said they have no TRUE power. In that if they try to fully excersize the power then they would simply get ousted.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 20:46:23 [Preview] No.24756 del
>>24753
>People see monarchy as superior because when functioning correctly it is superior to democracy in everyway possible.
That is not true. When democracy functioning correctly it is superior to autocracy in great many ways.
>For instance the monarch is like a father and son relationship where the nation is the monarchs house and it's his job to defend it.
And making one person as an owner of he house it's excludes everyone else of the ownership and those guys who's actual job will be to defend it since the autocrat is only one guy how can he do it alone, also he can't be there everywhere and his jobs will be numerous won't have interest doing their job well. On the other hand in a correctly functioning democracy all those people who will have the job to defend it will also be owners and has interest to do it well.
Autocracy maybe can do some stuff more efficiently, maybe on national level, like foreign relations but due it's centralized nature it is bound to be inefficient on other areas, like things of local level. Or it needs to maintain huge bureaucracy to do things in timely fashion, but again since that is very costly it is also inefficient.
For example. In a correctly functioning democracy in the commune where I live I see that a climbing frame on the playground started to rust. It can further deteriorate, it can cause accident. As a responsible owner of the state who sees a local problem which has an easy and efficient solution, I step up, clear away the rust and paint the patch over.
In a badly functioning democracy - like this one - I would get busted by the cops for damaging state property. In a non-democratic monarchy the sames. In both cases to fix the problem of rusting climbing frame, first the problem need to be registered at the authorities and pass up to a level where someone can decide to do about it. Then an order has to be passed down to people who actually can fix the problem to fix it. The do, then they have to report back for all they done. Oh and the place also have to be checked regularly if there is a problem needs fixing and to catch people who want to damage property. Tons of people and their time and energy needed and a hoard of a smaller dragon just for a small patch of rust.


Bernd 04/11/2019 (Thu) 21:34:29 [Preview] No.24757 del
>>24756
Obviously monarchy is more complex than the way I described it but overall that is the simple way to do things. Democracy on the other hand will always devolve into those with power/money being at the highest order with nothing to balance them which isn't the case in a monarchy. Why do you think that since humanities inception it has always been monarchy throughout most of history. Democracy will always fail. Want an example? Rome.


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 05:29:54 [Preview] No.24758 del
>>24753
>TRUE power
who is the biggest landowner in the world?


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 05:44:44 [Preview] No.24761 del
>>24757
Again your first problem is that you mix up concept. And in this case it isn't just cosmetic.
Rome never was a democracy. It was a republic (created due to the failure of the monarchy) with an aristocratic system which turned into oligarchy.
While imperial Rome (and probably even the Etruscan kingship too) has a few examples on monarchy done good, but it has waaay more examples of doing it wrong. Frankly just a handful of rulers can be cited as "good" ruler from... what, a hundred?
And again you mixing up the terms leads you to wrong conclusions. For the most times monarchies weren't autocracies, great many times they were aristocracies. Moreover not every medieval monarchy was absolutism. In fact none at all, it is typical for the modern period, and absolute monarchies became failures in short time.
If you keep up mixing up things I will stop reply because it isn't worth my time. Thank you.


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 06:21:06 [Preview] No.24762 del
>>24761
What I was trying to say is that in any democracy or republic the sides with the most money will always have an edge to the point where you don't have any true authority unless you succumb to one of the two sides of the debate. A good example of a monarchy was Sweden. In the past as well a single monarch was shown to be able to completely shift the state of their country around like augustus and philip of macedon. A monarch at their best should unify their country a monarch at their worst you get rome.


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 10:31:17 [Preview] No.24764 del
Non-Catholic monarchy is the best form of monarchy. Prove me wrong.


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 10:45:01 [Preview] No.24766 del
anarchism is the way forward. prove me wrong.


Bernd 04/12/2019 (Fri) 20:23:14 [Preview] No.24800 del
>>24762
You still don't get it. The autocrat of the republic (dictator) still can do the same what the autocrat of the monarchy can do. Maybe if I would draw a table you would understand it. You want to compare two things which is incomparable, you are like the guys who match up capitalism with socialism...
Just because the form is monarchy it can not offer more than a republic (again: a republic isn't a democracy), it only can do what the system offer, for both there is a system available with one person rule (beside the rule of few, and rule of many). To counter your examples I would cite Peisistratos of Athens. Who wasn't a monarch, but was a one person ruler and did basically the same what you would expect.
>What I was trying to say is that in any democracy or republic the sides with the most money will always have an edge to the point where you don't have any true authority unless you succumb to one of the two sides of the debate.
I don't get what you were trying to say. But I want to interject for a moment and highlight the fact that contemporary democracies are in fact ochlocracies. Why? Because for a democracy one needs demos which members share identity, sense of community, and acknowledged common interests. And now we only have bunch of individuals with same passports.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 07:08:29 [Preview] No.24806 del
>>24800
>I don't get what you were trying to say
What I was attempting to say is that the people with the most money will always be uncontested in democracy. Basically if the people with the money promote specific groups then those groups can advertise themselves more than the average lesser group. This is why it is always republican and democrat in the USA. Those are the two groups with the most fiance.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 08:35:28 [Preview] No.24807 del
>>24806
>people with the most money will always be uncontested in democracy.
Not really. In a democracy every member of the demos has the same rights and duties, laws applies to everyone, money or position can't overrule them. Also for a democracy parties aren't needed, not even with indirect representation. And from that it's just a matter of legislation to forbid those with big financial background to buy their way.
For example in Athens in the period of the declining republic people frequently sold their votes but that could have been prevented not just with banning this practice, but finding a way of compensating them (I think in a way they did that, I don't remember clearly anymore), also with the restoration of the faith in their responsibility toward their state.
And what you are talking about is all present. War of Roses rings a bell? Basically the same. Just more bloody.

Also - referring to previous posts - appealing to he fact that democracy turns into shit in itself is fallacious, since every system will eventually turn into shit. This is how things are. And ofc not just with governmental systems but with everything, decay is unavoidable, everything is dying from the moment it became, you, me, the living, inanimate objects and the universe.
So I could pull this card out against everything. But him here >>24726 gave a good link on this. Read it, it might give some enlightenment.

Frankly governmental forms (monarchy, republic) and systems (autocracy, aristocracy, democracy) aren't matter. They all could work good and efficient. What matters is the selection of those people who make it work. With the appropriate people in the appropriate positions they will work fine. This is why if one wants to create a good working system he needs to create a system for the selection. Letting ambition of the individuals decide is a guarantee of going down the shitter since ambition and talent in just exceptional cases aligns.
Good alternative would be emphasize the education of the people, both mind and moral. If the educaton system produces more talented people it is more likely they will land in important offices. But in the link above this is also mentioned. What I'm saying isn't new, only needs a somewhat deeper knowledge on politics than superficial, or pub politics.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 10:16:32 [Preview] No.24809 del
>>24807
Also.
Nowadays when fags talking about democracy all of them fapping to liberal democracy and condemning illiberal democracy. They express liberalism is absolutely essential to it. They aren't entirely wrong in the sense that the members of the demos have to enjoy the same level of freedom (that means no positive discrimination of made up minorities!). But beside that they need to be equal in their rights and obligations, so socialism also important.
But one thing absolutely everyone likes to forget: for a working democracy one needs nationalism as well. The members of the demos needs to know and feel they are part of the same community, they are responsible for it just like for themselves and for the other members of the demos. Their own interests can only be validated through the community's interest. Their country, state, nation is their property just like their personal property, it's like the house metaphor which was written above in the thread somewhere.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 12:56:13 [Preview] No.24812 del
>>24807
>Every member of the demos has the same rights and duties
Not really the rich get priviliges for instance look at the recent case of epstein he basically got a small slap on the wrist but otherwise was allowed to go out without any troubles when in a monarch the man's head would be off his body by now. The rich get priviliges and this allows them to influence the results via bribery. This is much more difficult in a monarchy. While you pointed towards the war of roses being a good example remember the 12 of so civil wars the roman republic had during its latter years. Both systems have their faults but I am of the opinion a monarch is superior to democracy/republics because a single good ruler can completely change the image of a country for instance peter the great.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 14:05:50 [Preview] No.24813 del
>>24806
democracy is pay2win like people on 4chan say


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 14:36:01 [Preview] No.24814 del
>>24812
>peter the great.

eh he failed m8
his reforms were at best half-assed never finished and probably not even possible


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 14:43:36 [Preview] No.24815 del
>>24812
No. You took an example (Epstein) from an ochlocracy and not democracy.
And again you use monarchy wrong.
>in a monarch the man's head would be off his body by now.
UK is a monarchy. Pls tell me when was the last time when:
1. they executed someone;
2. by beheading.
Now, this was the last time I replied to you because you clearly don't want to learn the differences of the terms, which means you are a troll.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 14:49:05 [Preview] No.24816 del
>>24815
Again I said the monarch in this country has 0 power.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 19:17:24 [Preview] No.24821 del
I'm for enlightening despotism&monarchy. Many nations including western ones, needs father like person to this mess. Democracy at Best a cherry on top. Rablle rule=poop


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 19:36:51 [Preview] No.24822 del
>>24821
>not advocating for a Khanate


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 21:22:56 [Preview] No.24824 del
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>>24812
>The rich get priviliges and this allows them to influence the results via bribery.

Same works in any political system, including any types of monarchy.

That's just common trait of any society, because human society is hierarchical by design. Even other higher primates are hierarchical.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 21:34:35 [Preview] No.24826 del
>>24822
different fancy words for the same glorious purpose.


Bernd 04/13/2019 (Sat) 22:20:36 [Preview] No.24828 del
>>24824
In the case of a monarchy it limits their power because the monarch will always be above the rich.


Bernd 04/14/2019 (Sun) 09:04:01 [Preview] No.24837 del
>>24828
>In the case of a monarchy it limits their power because the monarch will always be above the rich.

If monarch would openly ignore needs of the rich (and powerful, because it is same), he risking to stop being monarch. History proved it multiple times.

Even in absolutist monarchy there are close circle of monarch who do different jobs (advising, management, diplomatic, shady things etc) for him, and then receive reward. Of course some stray person from this group may be punished if he does something very wrong and has no support from others, but it would be wrong to say that monarch has absolute power and no one can influence him.

In classic feudal monarchy it is even more noticeable, because monarch often isn't even biggest buy in terms of power, but mostly a guy who is ok for everyone who has power. He needs balancing between his vassals, who may use their power and money to get what they want.

So, in the end, it doesn't matter, there always some people who are rich and powerful in any political system. Maybe with idealistic approach it works differently, but where you can find ideal thing in real world?


Bernd 04/14/2019 (Sun) 10:15:32 [Preview] No.24838 del
>>24837
I never said their wasn't rich and powerful people in a monarchy I said that the monarch somewhat restricts their power. I know that isn't always the case but a monarch who does his job correctly can make them less influential.


Bernd 04/14/2019 (Sun) 12:37:36 [Preview] No.24839 del
>>24838

Same can be said about presidential republic with democratic elections for example. Government has power and controls the law, and most laws in any country prohibit money influencing and put people's interests forward.

But it rarely works as intended. Do you think that this will work in monarchy? Only big difference is that monarch isn't replaced so often (and we may see - president may sit in place for long time too).

Actually, it is more complex question than only monarchy vs some elective system. It is very dependent on economical and societal structure. I guess elective democracy in medieval times must be much different than that democracy in modern times. Same with monarchy. Technically many countries are monarchies nowadays, even if they officially are democracies (look at Central Asia), but it doesn't work in way that it worked 1000 years ago. Just because society is different, everything became faster (from infromation flow to migration), regions stopped being self-sustainable, markets changed much.

I think it is not political system shapes society, but society shapes system into form that fits. Of course exceptions exist, but in historical time ranges they aren't noticeable.


Bernd 04/14/2019 (Sun) 21:50:33 [Preview] No.24850 del
>>24837
its sad that the best dies in assasinations, im thinking specifically on alexander 2


Bernd 04/14/2019 (Sun) 23:51:25 [Preview] No.24852 del
>>24850
or banished and humiliated like poor old Pedro II


Bernd 04/15/2019 (Mon) 01:16:35 [Preview] No.24853 del
>>24852
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_of_Brazil

I did not know about him. fascinating man.

"The reign of Pedro II thus came to an unusual end—he was overthrown while highly regarded by the people and at the pinnacle of his popularity, and some of his accomplishments were soon brought to naught as Brazil slipped into a long period of weak governments, dictatorships, and constitutional and economic crises"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Pedro_II_of_Brazil_1848.jpg

looks like a bernd to me


Bernd 04/15/2019 (Mon) 12:23:10 [Preview] No.24857 del
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>>24853
Wait a second...


Bernd 04/15/2019 (Mon) 20:55:54 [Preview] No.24875 del
>>24850
>its sad that the best dies in assasinations, im thinking specifically on alexander 2

Second half of 19th century and first years of 20th were horrific for Russian aristocracy and government, for example, 3500 government-related people died in terror acts in 1905 (less in other years, but still much). Overall it was peaceful belle epoque time though, but people often underestimate scale of terror (not only Jewish or commie, there were plenty of different revolutionary groups, even radical conservatives, but most of terrorists were different kinds of socialists, as always).

For example, three ministers of internal affairs (i.e. police) were killed in ten years, last one was famous Stolypin.

Soviet historiography said that they brought this on themselves and maybe partially it is true, but situation in Russian Empire wasn't that bad to justify this completely though.

This is offtop, sorry.


Bernd 04/15/2019 (Mon) 21:54:38 [Preview] No.24879 del
>>24853
He was 100% Berndish. Shy and reclusive, bookworm with assburgerish knowledge on every topic, could speak 13 languages other than his mother tongue, excitedly followed scientific advancements and exchanged letters with prominent figures of his age.



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