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bolitics serios discussion – edició català Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 16:32:06 [Preview] No. 10368
Catalans have been acting pretty edgily lately. (note the correct usage of adverb there, and not the adjective) Their parliament apparently wants to illegally hold a binding referendum on independence, which is against the Spanish constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

Let's see what the Russian proofsters report on that.

https://www.rt.com/news/402306-catalonia-referendum-law-parliament/
https://www.rt.com/news/402981-catalonia-national-day-independence/

Interdasting. It would seem the date is 1st of October. Until then, we can expect lots of backpedaling. But let us be surprised and hope something actually happens this time.


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 18:49:44 [Preview] No. 10373 del
I'm not sure how to feel about this. In the times of EU I think autonomy is enough. I don't know the specifics on how things work in Iberia but I would guess an independent Catalonia still had to cooperate closely with the rest of Spain.


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 19:13:42 [Preview] No. 10374 del
>>10373
Yep considering EU it's equally retarded as Scotland (before they knew results of brexit referendum, jej). However, Catalans are commies while Spain is Jesuit right (same as EU leadership) so their point is that by being directly vassalised by EU they get some more political space at home.


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 19:45:18 [Preview] No. 10375 del
>>10374
Isn't Catalonia economically more developed or more wealthy then the other provinces?


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 20:19:32 [Preview] No. 10376 del
>Catalonia becomes independent
>Podemos and PSOE lose a large voting base
>move their positions rightwards to retain voters
>as a result, the Overton window in Spain moves to the right
I can't see how this is any different from Calexit.


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 22:59:34 [Preview] No. 10383 del
>Si amanece, nos vamos
I think this is a bad idea.
> In 2014, the region staged an informal vote on independence, during which some 80 percent voted to split from Spain. However, the vote had a poor turnout: only about a third of the region’s voters came to the polls.


Bernd 09/13/2017 (Wed) 23:35:44 [Preview] No. 10384 del
>>10376
It is, as the right wing currently in power in Spain EU Jesuits. Well at least they aren't Merkel-tier, I guess.

Another thing I'd like to point out is; does anyone else feel like only socialist supported independence movements seem to get coverage in international media? You hear of Catalans, Scots and Kurds, but rarely of Venetians or Corsicans.

Speaking of Venetians, they're about as serious about it as Catalans right now. The pro-independence party is firmly in power, they ran an informal online poll on which (if results are to be believed) 56.6% of all eligible voters voted yes, in December 2016 a bill has passed that declared Venetians a national minority (important for language rights), and they're holding an autonomy referendum later in October (along with Lombardy).


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 05:30:11 [Preview] No. 10388 del
>>10384
>does anyone else feel like only socialist supported independence movements seem to get coverage in international media? You hear of Catalans, Scots and Kurds, but rarely of Venetians or Corsicans.
Not to mention the Székelys. They're still pushing for autonomy first tho.


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 08:28:00 [Preview] No. 10389 del
>>10375
Yes. Basically the South is leaching from the North and tries to destroy their national idendity and now the Caralans have enough of that shit and are striking back by making a referendum where they will vote if they are for freedom or furthermore cuckoldry.


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 08:41:37 [Preview] No. 10390 del
(16.57 KB 290x290 eussr-290-x-290.jpg)
>>10384
>right wing currently in power in Spain
>only socialist supported independence movements

Is there someone in Europe who isn't socialist and left wing? Maybe from inside people can notice subtle differences, but from outside they all full socialist-tier already.


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 16:11:13 [Preview] No. 10394 del
>>10390
The outside perspective is that Nordic welfare state is not true socialism, because some parts of it aren't bad and that's inconvenient for blaming socialism for everything bad in the world. We can't allow that because the whole world must be converted into capitalism so that things like slave trade can start to regulate themselves into nonexistence.

Free movement of immigrants of course is 100% socialistic and will only turn universal healthcare that wasn't true socialism into being true socialism when the system breaks. Free agents using force to appropriate resources has nothing to do with capitalism, obviously, unless if its the good part of capitalism that maces Nordics partly non-socialist.

My point is that outside perspective is retarded.


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 16:31:22 [Preview] No. 10395 del
What happened to KC?


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 16:53:43 [Preview] No. 10396 del
>>10395
Happened something?


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 17:00:55 [Preview] No. 10397 del
>>10395
I think they added a bypass thing as a joke. It's area blocking IPs but instead of showing "you can't enter, lol" it is what it is. You have to be clever to enter the site.

^ possibly a very false statement

^ certainly gravely offtopic


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 17:09:28 [Preview] No. 10399 del
>>10397
Too bad, I'm not clever


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 17:31:18 [Preview] No. 10400 del
>>10397
>bypass thing
What?


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 20:11:20 [Preview] No. 10405 del
>>10394
Oh please, you don't need that level of sarcasm.

>Free movement of immigrants of course is 100% socialistic and will only turn universal healthcare that wasn't true socialism into being true socialism when the system breaks

Pretty much, I don't know about 100% though. Socialism, at least not the national-socialism, is about equality, and providing worst equality for everyone is better than providing good healthcare for small group of privileged rich people, i.e. nordic citizens. From non-nazi socialism viewpoint people from Nigeria are pretty much same as people from Sweden, so why former have worst conditions while latter are bathing in richness and comfort? We are aiming to humanitarian superpower, right?

It is also about destroying wrong old order of evil oppressing hierarchy. This concept isn't modern SJW thing like "old-style communists" like to think, it was same from start. Lenin, for example, wrote almost same things about Russian majority like modern left-wing ideologists write about da evil whitey. He and early commies also supported anti-christianity but rarely tried to bully other religions like Islam, just to support fighting the oppression.

It helps to remove societal relationships and trust, so it allows to create the "new man", like "new Soviet man", who doesn't have history and culture, but starts from tabula rasa state.

So, opening borders and worsening conditions of people is not really foreign thing for hardcore socialists. You just viewing this from pure economical viewpoint, but it isn't only economics that matters there.

>slave trade can start to regulate themselves

Capitalists also eat kids.


Bernd 09/14/2017 (Thu) 23:51:49 [Preview] No. 10408 del
>>10405
>From non-nazi socialism viewpoint
AND from capitalist viewpoint it would be a free market competition over the same resources
>opening borders and worsening conditions of people is not really foreign thing for hardcore socialists
and not for capitalists either, so moot point
>socialism is about equality
Partly, but equality is an entirely different concept that's used as its marketing strategy, when socialism is just about socialism. Social ownership of resources, ergo immigrants would have a social right to compete over them.

The reason this is relevant with Spanish right wing is that being EU jesuits is beneficial to the right wing for purely economic reasons regardless of the socialists who may also want more immigrants for ideological reasons, so calling them all socialists is just a poor deflection. It's like saying that everything is socialism because a person who cleans floors eats the same amount of food as a deadbeat does so it's really just a "subtle difference" of some dirt piling up. It's an essential difference, not subtle at all.


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 00:04:51 [Preview] No. 10409 del
(27.65 KB 244x311 detective_asburger.jpg)
With all these clamorings for secessions in Europe we might as well secede into individual households where every family keeps their tax entirely to themselves.


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 05:06:57 [Preview] No. 10410 del
>>10409
There were some idea about same with monarchies so girls could indulge in their fantasies of being princesses.


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 05:13:45 [Preview] No. 10411 del
>>10408
>>socialism is about equality
>Partly
No. Socialism is entirely about equality. You know Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. It's the Égalité.


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 16:20:11 [Preview] No. 10429 del
(83.96 KB 720x405 Front.png)
>>10368
elmao, the rulecucks are quite literally fascist (note: that's bundle of sticks is called fasces)
http://referendum.cat/


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 16:54:25 [Preview] No. 10435 del
(2.32 MB 1824x1320 fascists.jpg)


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 17:32:44 [Preview] No. 10436 del
>>10435
wtf I hate trump now


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 17:48:56 [Preview] No. 10437 del
Madrid is resorting to Judaism already
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41284764


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 18:25:58 [Preview] No. 10441 del
>>10437
From the perspective of the Spanish government it was a mistake to give autonomy to Catalunya. But now if they revoked it that would cause massive outcry. I dunno how serious the situation is the media is always inclined to exaggeration.


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 19:09:56 [Preview] No. 10446 del
>>10441
Well, you could say it was. Catalans are clearly not mature enough for self-government


Bernd 09/15/2017 (Fri) 19:28:44 [Preview] No. 10447 del
>>10446
Not really that. Autonomy is always just a first step toward independence. This is why Romanians don't want to give it to the Székelys. And of course because they are afraid that Hungary will back their pursuit of independence.


Bernd 09/17/2017 (Sun) 00:29:41 [Preview] No. 10495 del
Català en Alemany? en el meu KC? es la novetat des monats!


Bernd 09/17/2017 (Sun) 05:23:43 [Preview] No. 10496 del
So, does this strengthen or weaken the position of Basque separatists?


Bernd 09/17/2017 (Sun) 05:49:09 [Preview] No. 10498 del
>>10496
That depends on the outcome it could give them a legal precedence which would support their cause. They aren't necessarily an ally for Catalonia with their terrorist past.


Bernd 09/18/2017 (Mon) 05:12:55 [Preview] No. 10511 del
>>10508
Circus.


Bernd 09/18/2017 (Mon) 08:45:51 [Preview] No. 10517 del


Bernd 09/18/2017 (Mon) 09:36:45 [Preview] No. 10518 del
>>10517
>Israeli flags could be seen flying in the crowd.
Just not from this panoramic angle goy.
Also are these shirts what I think they are?


Bernd 09/18/2017 (Mon) 15:30:27 [Preview] No. 10529 del
(694.50 KB 472x360 1491894396805.gif)
>>10517
oy vey

>1000 men on rally
doesn't seem very big


Bernd 09/18/2017 (Mon) 16:54:47 [Preview] No. 10531 del
>>10529
Tried to find an expressive picture for my reply when I stumbled into this and somehow grew upon me. Also all the other findings suck.


Bernd 09/20/2017 (Wed) 17:02:30 [Preview] No. 10575 del
So shits is hitting the fan. My guess is that the central state is doing this on purpose to get rid of the Catalan gommies.


Bernd 09/20/2017 (Wed) 17:13:00 [Preview] No. 10576 del
>>10575
yeah, the kcmodded media are already oyveying at the thought of armed police arrests
proofs of said arrests
https://www.rt.com/news/403958-catalonia-spain-protests-searches/


Bernd 09/20/2017 (Wed) 18:27:41 [Preview] No. 10577 del
>>10576
Well, demonstrations were inevitable.
Btw. When was the last time this thing was on the table?


Bernd 09/21/2017 (Thu) 05:14:13 [Preview] No. 10583 del
>>10579
So why don't the Spanish government let them hold this referendum, they could just rule it unconstitutional again and that's done for another 3-4 years.
Change only comes through... >>10582


Bernd 09/21/2017 (Thu) 18:56:41 [Preview] No. 10594 del
(267.22 KB 865x966 real-catalan.jpeg)
>>10583
Because existence of successful referendum surely will be used by Catalans as argument for democracy etc, even if it will be unconstitutional. It is much easier to demand something when you have documented majority support.


Bernd 09/22/2017 (Fri) 05:52:07 [Preview] No. 10597 del
>>10594
They already held a referendum. The turnout was kinda low and nothing happened which is no way strengthened the cause. However this circus the Spanish government lets doing just makes the notion more popular as the Catalan separatists use it for propaganda purposes.
The Spanish government could allow them to hold their occasional little referendums showing everyone how democratic they are and nothing would happen. Ofc between referendums probably they should do some stuff which more or less convince the majority of Catalans that Catalonia profits more inside Spain than outside of it.


Bernd 09/28/2017 (Thu) 22:26:06 [Preview] No. 10737 del
(37.83 KB 600x400 1425174869085.jpg)
>The UN has refused to participate in the monitoring of the referendum.[68] In a 2015 interview, then-UN General Secretary Ban Ki Moon said that he did not think the principle of self-determination could be invoked by Catalonia because it is not on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories.[69]
>On 23 September, the UN Independent Expert on the Promotion of a Democratic and Equitable International Order, Alfred de Zayas, issued a media statement[70] where he advocates for the right of self-determination of Catalan people, reminding that "The Spanish Constitution itself stipulates in its articles 10 and 96 the supremacy of international law and in particular international human rights law over of domestic law" and that "self-determination is not limited to the decolonisation context".


Bernd 09/28/2017 (Thu) 22:27:56 [Preview] No. 10738 del
Overall, I'm expecting a flop akin to what happened in Scotland 2014. It's too close to call and Juncker has already called Catalans bad goyim and that they won't get to stay in EU.


Bernd 09/29/2017 (Fri) 05:43:39 [Preview] No. 10742 del
>>10737
>is not on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories
Then they should get on that list first. Ooops they have autonomy. Too bad. No independence for you, Catalonia!

>>10738
Well, the theme song: >>10582 is more relevant then ever.
An actual war of independence would even be beneficial to the Catalan people as great common struggles are what forges nations.
Juncker can go and suck a bag of dicks. Why would EU say good bye to the only region of Iberia which has an actual economy?


Bernd 09/29/2017 (Fri) 08:00:40 [Preview] No. 10743 del
>>10742
>the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories
That list is quite clearly compiled with an agenda of decolonisation and fucking up Russia and its allies.
>Why would EU say good bye to the only region of Iberia which has an actual economy?
Because Juncker and Rajoy are Jesuit pals, while Catalans are dirty commies.


Bernd 09/29/2017 (Fri) 08:01:08 [Preview] No. 10744 del
>>10743
lol why is my ball amerilard, I'm in a G*rman public institution atm


Bernd 09/29/2017 (Fri) 15:08:42 [Preview] No. 10746 del
>>10744
Germany confirmed for American colony.


Bernd 09/29/2017 (Fri) 16:11:08 [Preview] No. 10749 del
>>10744
Germany is still occupied by the US.

>>10743
>Rajoy
Oh wow, Spain has minority government. This explains a lot. Well, some. At least one good reason why Catalans pursue independence now, the Spanish government is weak they only can do stuff with the compliance of the opposition this gives better chances. What the opposition is thinking of the present situation?


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 17:31:51 [Preview] No. 10795 del
>>10794
But what if they want to vote on No?


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 18:45:17 [Preview] No. 10796 del
>>10795
I presume the bolice blocked the referendum mostly in big cities
there's more c*stilians in big cities than in the countryside so I guess a larger percentage of no than yes votes got blocked


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:27:35 [Preview] No. 10798 del
How was the turnout?

I think the Catalans despite being leftists doing a very nationalistic thing. By default they should stand for the dissolution of every nation states and not creating another one.


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:28:10 [Preview] No. 10799 del
According to Wikipedia, Slovenia is the only sovereign country whose government has openly supported Catalan move for independence.


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:30:56 [Preview] No. 10800 del
In fact Catalonia within Spain is extremely similar to Slovenia within Yugoslavia. The economically most developed region of a state where majority ethnicity is struggling to keep de facto centralist control of a de jure decentralised state. At the same time, both Slovenes and Catalans are socialists yet ethnically conscious.

I think, within Slovenia, if someone were to start a national-socialist movement, but didn't call it so, he would have some serious support.


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:44:57 [Preview] No. 10801 del
>>10800
On the other hand Slovenia was mostly part of another country not so long ago and Catalonia is in the (fairly) same state for half a millennia now.


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:47:28 [Preview] No. 10802 del
>>10801
On the third hand that state (which Catalonia was part of) was created for an advantage which is irrelevant now.


Bernd 10/01/2017 (Sun) 19:56:50 [Preview] No. 10803 del
>>10801
Catalonia was twice part of France. Firstly 1641-1643 (when Louis XIV, upon ascending the throne, released the Catalan republic, which revolted in 1641 and immediately became a French protectorate, the republic then lasted until 1652, when except for the northernmost parts which were ceded to France Catalonia was reconquered by Spain), and secondly 1810-1814, under Napoleon.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 05:22:48 [Preview] No. 10804 del
>>10803
Exactly. They spent barely any time under foreign rule.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 05:28:59 [Preview] No. 10806 del


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 05:35:57 [Preview] No. 10807 del
>>10806
Consider the numbers!

In this referendum the turnout was 42.34%. At the Scottish one, the turnout was 84.59%.

I have said previously that public opinion is extremely similar to the situation in Scotland 3 years ago. In Catalonia, 2,020,144 voters supporting independence out of 5,343,358 total amounts to 37.81%. In Scotland, it was 1,617,989 voters out of 4,283,392 total, or 37.77%. So, when I said the result will be similar to how it turned out in Scotland, I was only off by 0.04%.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 06:11:22 [Preview] No. 10808 del
consider this

spain = yugoslavia
(franco = tito)

catalonia = slovenia

vasconia + aragon = croatia
andalusia = bosnia
castile = serbia
asturias + cantabria = montenegro
galicia = macedonia
(portugal = bulgaria)


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 08:01:47 [Preview] No. 10810 del
(459.63 KB 1200x1404 Rosetta_Stone.JPG)
>>10808
do one with US states plz


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 18:01:20 [Preview] No. 10832 del
>>10808
Galicia with her proud sailor folk and maritime legacy is moar liek Dalmatia. I know Dalmatia isn't a country now but whatever.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 18:19:09 [Preview] No. 10834 del
>>10810
Just for the fun I tried to draw parallel with US states but hit dead end. Maybe Slovenia has some idea.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 18:25:43 [Preview] No. 10835 del
>>10832
No, think about it again!


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 18:26:23 [Preview] No. 10836 del
>>10834
I tried drawing parallels between US states and European countries but can't do much here.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 18:29:14 [Preview] No. 10837 del
>>10835
Franco = Lincoln
Catalonia = Cali
Andalusia = Texas
Catalonia and Aragon = North and South, not sure which is which
Galicia = Pacific NW?
Erm.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 20:34:31 [Preview] No. 10839 del
https://www.rt.com/news/405452-vucic-kosovo-catalonia-eu-hypocrisy/
Oh if the standard would only be double...

>>10807
Yeah.
The turnout was high in Scotland as the referendum was considered legal by the senior partner so people who were against the leave went to vote. In case of Catalonia those who would vote on No stayed at home knowing the referendum is invalid anyway so there's no need to sound their voice.


Bernd 10/02/2017 (Mon) 20:41:57 [Preview] No. 10841 del
>>10808
Olivença = Western Outlands


Bernd 10/03/2017 (Tue) 15:39:39 [Preview] No. 10857 del
>>10837
Hawaii = Canary or Balearic Islands


Bernd 10/03/2017 (Tue) 18:29:35 [Preview] No. 10865 del
(701.85 KB 1455x1181 balkanization.jpg)


Bernd 10/03/2017 (Tue) 18:54:15 [Preview] No. 10866 del
>>10865
Something isn't stimmt.


Bernd 10/03/2017 (Tue) 18:58:15 [Preview] No. 10867 del
>>10866
You want the Trianon parts back?


Bernd 10/03/2017 (Tue) 19:05:13 [Preview] No. 10868 del
>>10867
That's without question but I referred to whats Slovenbernd wrote:
>catalonia = slovenia
>vasconia + aragon = croatia
>asturias + cantabria = montenegro


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:12:39 [Preview] No. 10886 del
(18.09 KB 360x270 dfa.jpg)
Catalans say they'll declare independence next Monday.


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:19:57 [Preview] No. 10889 del
>>10886
Good. Western Urp is a boring place anyway.


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:30:18 [Preview] No. 10891 del
Index says the EP had a good heated debate about Catalonia with shouted interruptions.


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:32:12 [Preview] No. 10892 del
>>10891
Oh yeah – I recall hearing it on radio. Should find an article for postings.


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:35:28 [Preview] No. 10893 del
>>10892
I can post one in Hungarian if it helps.


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 18:39:58 [Preview] No. 10894 del
It's supposed to be this:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3KJjucHo6dk [Embed]
But who will watch an two hour long jawing?


Bernd 10/04/2017 (Wed) 21:58:44 [Preview] No. 10902 del
(16.13 KB 396x650 1486596548807.jpg)
>>10886
I bet they won't have the balls to actually do it, inertia seems to be the rule these days.

>>10891
>good heated debate
>shouted interruptions
pic related


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 05:52:20 [Preview] No. 10907 del
>>10901
Balkanization of Southern Europe. Is this intentionally generated by someone? Or the failure of nation states? Is the impact of the 19-20th centuries' nationalist movements fading? Or just it's the fall of Romance folks as Hitler predicted in his late conversations with Borman? Or will something stronger rise from the ruins of the weary and overaged Romance folks?


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 06:45:22 [Preview] No. 10908 del
>>10907
What do you mean, failure of nation-states? What we're seeing now is establishment of states for stateless nations.

Btw, the Bavarian separatist party also made over 100% gains at the German election. But in Germany's case that means 70k instead of 30k votes. At that rate, it will take them 4-5 terms before anyone even takes them seriously.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 14:15:56 [Preview] No. 10909 del
>>10907
Failure of Southern European states along with the overarching EU slowly becoming a superstate, rendering some states obsolete.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 15:43:46 [Preview] No. 10911 del
>>10886
I was thinking about what I would do as Spain. What will happen if they declared martial law, forbid the ruling Catalan party, put the pig guy with the funny hair into prison and would take over the regional government until the next elections. There are many people left who want to stay Spanish, so what is their reaction to this?


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 15:49:13 [Preview] No. 10912 del
>>10908
Well, the 19th century seen the birth of nation-states for example Italy's. The folks on the Apennine Peninsula and the region up to the Alps decided they want to live in an unified country as they more or less felt they belong to the same nation, the Italian. Through their common struggle against the Habsburgs they experienced this common identity that bound them together.
They didn't give up their regional identities because it didn't conflict with national identity as those aren't nations.
After the unification the Italian nation had common ventures some of which left them unsatisfied and others were outright failures. Since WW2 nationalism everywhere is a big no-no. Socialism and liberalism get rid of it (allowing only some harmless formalities) causing the national identity to wither so now regional identity is stronger in the Italians than the sense of belonging in the same state.

>>10909
Interesting point but then it won't be necessary for them to form their own separate countries. They could just stand up in the European Parliament for the dissolution of countries and promoting regional governing instead (of course as subordinate to an unified European government).


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 15:51:46 [Preview] No. 10913 del
>>10911
Brussels:
>muh Urpeon values
>muh hoomun rights
>Hitler


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 16:00:07 [Preview] No. 10914 del
>>10913
EU didn't give a fuck so far.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 16:11:22 [Preview] No. 10915 del
>>10914
Some beating and some shooting is nothing. What you wrote would definitely generate bitching and moaning.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 18:47:30 [Preview] No. 10916 del
>>10911
>I was thinking about what I would do as Spain
First thing I would do is, let them have the referendum, and let the referendum fail. Because it would. Especially if the central government encouraged people who were against it to go vote against, instead of insisting that the referendum shouldn't be conducted.
But they already fucked this one up. Bigly.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 18:49:13 [Preview] No. 10917 del
Oh also iirc someone called for loyalist protests on Saturday?


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 19:39:20 [Preview] No. 10918 del
>>10916
>But they already fucked this one up. Bigly.
B-but they are professionals. They have an army of consultants/advisors...

>>10917
Didn't hear about that. Well I didn't really followed the events.


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 21:09:12 [Preview] No. 10919 del
my speculation is that if anything starts it will be next sunday


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 21:27:16 [Preview] No. 10920 del
>>10919
>next
8th or 15th?
Why?
Could you tell as more about this habbening from your perspective?


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 22:36:43 [Preview] No. 10921 del
>>10920
>8th or 15th?
8th
>Why?
i've read some angry people on some forums, but they seemed serious about it
>Could you tell as more about this habbening from your perspective?
I came here a bit enraged after seeing lies trying to convince anons that catalonia independent movement is a nationalist movement, something ideologically close to the right wing and that "hitler would have wanted catalonia to be independent" i haven't read this whole thread, so pardon me if i say something that has already been discussed, and if i'm wrong, please, correct me because i only know half the fuck that's going on.

As far as i know, this conflict has it's roots in the spanish civil war, where catalonia became part of spain, fast forward and we have a catalonia that's in monetary debt with spain, going independent would most likely spare them this debt, this is all curious to me because some political narratives fit too, people who are proud of being spanish are labelled as fascist (if you hear any videos, "facha" is slur for fascist), this matches white guilt, also catalonian separatists claim to be the "oppresed nation", separatists might very well be acting as bleeding hearts on purpose, i mean if you're breaking the law (as they are) police is authorized and required to prevent it from happening, using force if neccesary, they knew they had it coming, and the mossos d'esquadra (think of it as catalonian police) have been very passive about the whole situation, although there are examples of some mossos abiding the law, but they were harassed.

TL;DR shit's fucked


Bernd 10/05/2017 (Thu) 23:13:17 [Preview] No. 10922 del
>>10921
>spanish civil war, where catalonia became part of spain
uh what


Bernd 10/06/2017 (Fri) 05:31:50 [Preview] No. 10923 del
>>10921
This is a very interesting thing that you write from here:
>we have a catalonia that's in monetary debt with spain,...
So please feel free to read the thread and add more of you thoughts.

However:
>catalonia independent movement is a nationalist movement
>"hitler would have wanted catalonia to be independent"
I'd like to know where you read these.


Bernd 10/06/2017 (Fri) 08:25:32 [Preview] No. 10925 del
>>10922
undoubtedly wrong, it was too late in the night for me to be lurking

>>10923
Now enterprises are leaving the region in order to ensure their investor's monetary security, so i'd say in the long term this is bad for them especially if they become communist, the debt part is as far as i've found out, i've yet to talk with the independentist section of my acquitances, but i fear they might be unreachable/too heated up to talk

>I'd like to know where you read these.
8's pol, i've read before how it "turned to shit" but now i have a clear confirmation


Bernd 10/06/2017 (Fri) 14:30:06 [Preview] No. 10926 del
(71.73 KB 640x438 1434677930381.png)
found this in my spurdo folder :DDDDDD


Bernd 10/06/2017 (Fri) 15:02:29 [Preview] No. 10928 del
>>10925
You shouldn't read /pol/. Read us.
It would be interesting to hear what your acquaintances think. Thread carefully with them, I believe now it's all emotional there.

>>10926
Nice.


Bernd 10/08/2017 (Sun) 08:44:08 [Preview] No. 10968 del
RT is streaming demonstrations in Barcelona against independence

good job M*drid convincing all those people not to go vote


Bernd 10/08/2017 (Sun) 09:54:23 [Preview] No. 10971 del
>>10968
Act first, think second!
This is my motto two.


Bernd 10/08/2017 (Sun) 09:54:54 [Preview] No. 10972 del
>>10971
>too
Ofc.


Bernd 10/08/2017 (Sun) 22:12:15 [Preview] No. 11029 del
I knew the sp*nish were fascist
https://www.rt.com/news/406060-spain-protest-nazi-salute/

in other news loyalist rally in barcelona today,
https://www.rt.com/news/406049-protest-against-catalan-independence/
decent numbers but I don't think they'll convince pigdemont


Bernd 10/09/2017 (Mon) 19:40:15 [Preview] No. 11047 del
>>11029
>fascist salute
Bah. They're just showing how high they have to reach for the oranges when they pick those from the trees.


Bernd 10/09/2017 (Mon) 19:57:46 [Preview] No. 11049 del
(64.22 KB 420x280 sun.jpg)
>>11047
>Bah. They're just showing how high they have to reach for the oranges when they pick those from the trees.

A year ago some group of teens in Russia were caught on photo with nazi salutes. After someone reported to police, and police found them, they said that it was game "show where is the sun": one person from group shouts "show where is the sun" and them everyone need to show it with hand. Person who shows sun last is the loser.

After some time police "believed" in this (they got agreement with these kids and their families of course), so they reported about this game officially and closed the case. It was in news and was hilarious as fuck.

https://lenta.ru/news/2016/05/18/school/


Bernd 10/09/2017 (Mon) 20:08:37 [Preview] No. 11051 del
(29.06 KB 392x294 Laughing-baby.jpg)
>>11049
>Rostov schoolchildren congratulated Hitler on his birthday with a Nazi greeting.
Hilarious.

>zigovali
Is this "sieg heil" somehow?


Bernd 10/09/2017 (Mon) 20:12:37 [Preview] No. 11052 del
>>11051
I presume so, it's equivalent to using "to sieg" in English, it's a bit ironic tho since "heil" means "to salute" instead


Bernd 10/09/2017 (Mon) 20:25:21 [Preview] No. 11055 del
>>11051
Yes, it is slang (often ironic) term to show nazi salutes. It is sieg -> zig in Russian, so salute also known (informally) as "ziga". "To throw the ziga" etc.


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 09:39:09 [Preview] No. 11065 del
epik – we should see the decision later today.
https://www.rt.com/news/406202-madrid-threatens-catalan-leader/


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 15:37:13 [Preview] No. 11066 del
>>11065
>We gonna cap you, ese!


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 16:45:18 [Preview] No. 11071 del
I hear piggy might declare independence in 15 minutes, RT has a stream up
I embedded it into https://cytu.be/r/khantube but I gotta eat dinner rn


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 16:55:59 [Preview] No. 11072 del
>>11071
Guten Appetit!


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:17:22 [Preview] No. 11073 del
the whole thing seems to have been cancelled


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:23:41 [Preview] No. 11074 del
>>11073
Well, it's politics of the 21st century's western Europe. They don't make revolutions and civil wars anymore. They only talk. It's like 90 years olds and sex.


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:27:15 [Preview] No. 11075 del
>>11073
>>11074
pussied out, yes
https://www.rt.com/news/406281-catalonia-leader-address-parliament-referendum/
I just find it sad that everyone seems to focus on EU with this question too much


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:34:03 [Preview] No. 11076 del
>>11075
That EU thing sounds controversial enough to blow it out of proportion. Media likes that.


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:41:30 [Preview] No. 11078 del
my conspiracy theory is that all this "it's a nationalist movement" and the way it flopped is to set a bad example for real nationalist movements and discourage them


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 18:49:32 [Preview] No. 11079 del
>>11078
Is the Catalan rhetoric nationalist?
For an outsider the whole thing can feel like a nationalist movement even I said something similar here >>10798 except for an even more outsider like an American or such it can be even more deceptive.
Also nationalism isn't an antithesis of socialism and liberalism. These three things deal in entirely different topic. Tho their representatives certainly can be real antagonistic with each other for one reason or another.


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 19:11:05 [Preview] No. 11080 del
>>11078
Sounds plausible; esp considering that Rajoy is pretty deep in the EU Jesuit hierarchy. Exactly the guys that want to keep the Old Order. The referendum would easily have failed if everyone voted, I'd say. And yet the Spanish gov't's actions have caused the result we see today – practically only supporters of independence going to vote.


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 19:13:50 [Preview] No. 11081 del
>>11079
i'd say it is, today in parlament "muh genetics" have been brought up by puigdemont, by the way independence has been declared but only lasted for 8 seconds


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 19:25:56 [Preview] No. 11082 del
>>11081
>only lasted for 8 seconds
We have a saying: "he who doesn't value the little, doesn't deserve the big".


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 19:56:01 [Preview] No. 11083 del
>>11082
wise words
also holy fuck i'm bad at debating, "muh genetics" haven't been brought by him today but somebody from another party brought up the fact that bringing genetics up was part of his campaign in the past


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 20:25:28 [Preview] No. 11085 del
>>11083
>but somebody from another party brought up
Not that grill after that Puigerdole dude?


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 22:19:54 [Preview] No. 11086 del
>>11085
yep, she brought it up to laugh at piggydump


Bernd 10/10/2017 (Tue) 22:20:19 [Preview] No. 11087 del
>>11086
t. listened to the whole farçe


Bernd 10/11/2017 (Wed) 15:39:27 [Preview] No. 11091 del
>>11090
Of course some people are dissatisfied. On the other hand on the Spanish side too. Both got a maybe.
Hmm. That means no btw. Kek.


Bernd 10/11/2017 (Wed) 15:40:39 [Preview] No. 11092 del
Is the Catalan government playing blackmail?


Bernd 10/11/2017 (Wed) 16:07:07 [Preview] No. 11093 del
>>11092
They're playing the victim card, for sure.


Bernd 10/13/2017 (Fri) 20:00:46 [Preview] No. 11164 del
https://spain.liveuamap.com/
might hopefully be useful some time


Bernd 10/14/2017 (Sat) 09:22:59 [Preview] No. 11179 del
>>11164
Iberian migrants flood Europe, spreading brown people and siesta everywhere.


Bernd 10/14/2017 (Sat) 10:06:46 [Preview] No. 11183 del
>>11179
Stop iberisation of europe!


Bernd 10/14/2017 (Sat) 17:20:19 [Preview] No. 11193 del
>>11183
I already had paella today.
¡el fug!


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 14:43:53 [Preview] No. 11292 del
based putin delivering premium bantz again
https://www.rt.com/news/407203-eu-separatist-sentiment-kosovo/


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 16:47:01 [Preview] No. 11297 del
>>11292
Whatabout Donbass' separatist movement? When will he condemn that?


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 17:11:44 [Preview] No. 11298 del
How does the procedure of becoming independent go?
Liek:
- declaring independence
- creating own constitution
- replacing federal institutions (if any)
- establishing missing institutions (monetary, military and such)
- asking recognition from EU and other countries
- establishing foreign relations
What else? And what order?


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 17:12:13 [Preview] No. 11299 del
>>11298
>EU
Not EU, but UN.


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 17:55:54 [Preview] No. 11300 del
>>11298
>- establishing foreign relations
generally needs to come first, because otherwise you're fucked from the start.
normally declaring independence is done first and institutions and constitution are set up later, but I'd say it's doable the other way around as well; especially if existing federal institutions can be usurped.


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 19:15:03 [Preview] No. 11304 del
>>11298
Acquiring a military or foreign relations (and not any relations, but with states that can actually help) comes first. Otherwise, independence will never take place.


Bernd 10/19/2017 (Thu) 19:28:31 [Preview] No. 11305 del
>>11304
Well Slovenia managed to assemble a military in a little under a day. I guess it's doable.


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 14:31:13 [Preview] No. 11336 del
>>11333
So the Spanish government threatened with revoking the Catalan autonomy.
In return the Catalan government threatened with declaring independence if they do.
They did.
Now the Catalan government visits some protest and call for a vote if they should declare independence or not.
If you can't keep your threats then don't make threats otherwise you make a joke out of yourself. Who's gonna take them seriously after this?


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 15:00:02 [Preview] No. 11339 del
this is all pretty clownish, is this how real politiku looks like? granted that important stuff is being decided but from a high horse this looks embarrasing

the only good thing to come out of this is that it's another failure of ultrajew's attempts to fuck shit up everywhere


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 15:30:09 [Preview] No. 11341 del
Can Madrid play the race card to regain the moral high ground, since Catalans are white and Castillians are mudblooded?
Is this why Catalonia is more economically successful?


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 15:57:52 [Preview] No. 11343 del
>>11341
kek

>>11339
Yup. Real politics are that pathetic.
Well. Not real real politics. Among the realities of our age and place politics are this pathetic.


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 19:42:56 [Preview] No. 11355 del
>>11336
Catalan politicians are massive pussies, unsurprisingly considering their socialism.


Bernd 10/21/2017 (Sat) 19:53:42 [Preview] No. 11357 del
>>11336
>>11355
Yep. A bunch of cucks.

As usual, it'll be up to the citizens. They should withdrawal all their money from the banks and refuse to pay taxes to the Spanish government. Squat in their homes. I'd love to see the Spanish government's reaction to that.


Bernd 10/22/2017 (Sun) 22:29:52 [Preview] No. 11391 del
>>11385
it would seem it has passed. in veneto 50% quorum was required, and it was. in lombardy, turnout was only 30%, but luckily the set rules didn't set quorum there :DDDDD


Bernd 10/23/2017 (Mon) 06:22:47 [Preview] No. 11392 del
>>11391
Yeah. 95 and 98% of the voters voted yes. Which isn't surprising as these ain't binging so who would voted no just stayed at home.


Bernd 10/23/2017 (Mon) 07:27:42 [Preview] No. 11396 del
more empty rhetoric from catalan politicians
https://www.rt.com/news/407492-catalan-officials-won-follow-madrid-orders/
it would seem they're so fucking indecisive because they're following the will of the catalan people which was indecisive at the referendum


Bernd 10/23/2017 (Mon) 07:43:20 [Preview] No. 11398 del
>>11396
Noone has the guts to step forward and claim he has the will of the Catalan people and tell the Catalans what to do and actually do something. Clowns.


Bernd 10/24/2017 (Tue) 15:27:20 [Preview] No. 11416 del
>>11336
Oh I was a bit hasty. The Spanish guvment only decided about a vote on article 155 it still not passed. The ball and serve at them.
https://www.rt.com/news/407584-catalonia-independence-madrid-dictatorship/


Bernd 10/24/2017 (Tue) 17:10:29 [Preview] No. 11418 del


Bernd 10/24/2017 (Tue) 18:09:21 [Preview] No. 11419 del
>>11418
It's not compulsory to give that to children...


Bernd 10/24/2017 (Tue) 18:34:25 [Preview] No. 11420 del
>>11419
Well, sure it's not compulsory, but I bet that there were schools that bought the books for school libraries, using taxpayer money.
At least that's my experience with propagandist material for children in primary schools, coming from a commie shithole in eastern Europe.


Bernd 10/24/2017 (Tue) 19:07:57 [Preview] No. 11423 del
>>11420
>I bet that there were schools that bought the books for school libraries
You are right probably. Still, children rarely take books into their hands if they don't have to. I'm particularly fond of reading yet I've went to the school library only once or twice. I wouldn't assume children of these days are more enthusiastic library goers.


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 13:36:16 [Preview] No. 11475 del
they just did it


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 15:22:48 [Preview] No. 11477 del
(432.21 KB 1108x812 Catalonia_celebrating.jpg)
>>11475
They did it! The absolute madmen! It's habbening!
I'm actually excited too. It's the most interesting thing since the Yugo Wars. I'm sorry Spain your pain is my pleasure but what can I do.


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 15:41:54 [Preview] No. 11478 del
>>11475
>>11477
>inb4 they pussy out again


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 15:43:38 [Preview] No. 11479 del
owo what's this


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 15:49:03 [Preview] No. 11480 del
>>11477
i too want to see how this ends


Bernd 10/27/2017 (Fri) 17:20:23 [Preview] No. 11485 del
>>11480
inb4 rajoy sends in the 🅱olice and catalans get beat up because they're too pussified to actually fight


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 07:25:01 [Preview] No. 11489 del
First challange:
https://www.rt.com/news/408016-madrid-catalan-government-sacked/
Can the Catalan leaders keep their job and continue govern Catalonia?

Of course Catalonia needs outer support. Will the Basques prove as an ally for them? Are there any separatist groups in Spain?
Right now other countries doesn't recognize them just yet but I think if Catalonia can handle the situation they'll change their bets and will recognize them one by one. I also believe on this front the most stubborn one will be Great Britain thanks for the Scottish question.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:08:55 [Preview] No. 11503 del
Oh and Slovenia is so far the only sovereign country to back the Catalan side (but not outright declare recognition of independence yet). Ebin.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:22:40 [Preview] No. 11504 del
>>11503
Joined by Venezuela and North Korea today, as I read.

Finland and Argentina are going to debate it in parliament at some point.

From non-sovereign entities, so far support has been voiced from: Abkhazia, Corsica, Flanders, Scotland, and South Ossetia.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:28:14 [Preview] No. 11505 del
>>11502
Yeah. That's the question if they can keep their positions despite they get sacked and if their subordinates keep obeying them and ignore those who are sent there by Madrid.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:29:42 [Preview] No. 11506 del
>>11503
>>11504
Good, good.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:33:54 [Preview] No. 11507 del
(78.69 KB 853x960 happy_mongol.jpg)


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 11:38:52 [Preview] No. 11508 del
>>11507
Oh fug.
Are we gonna get KHAN'd?


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 12:09:04 [Preview] No. 11509 del
(59.31 KB 514x343 orbán_szigorú.jpg)
>>11508
Soon.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 12:24:08 [Preview] No. 11510 del
If catalonia secedes it will leave Spain to the hands of those most willing to 'create industry' (I won't call it 'work' for a reason). Two things are possible:
1. They have no justification because they're not actually any less lazy than Spaniards, just squatting on a better position and misusing their privilege.
2. The Spaniards are actaully lazy and the people willing to earn the control of Spain in the future will be a new poor working class coming from Morocco, further cementing the islamization of Europe.

Good job.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 13:11:32 [Preview] No. 11513 del
>>11510
It's a subjective experience of an acquaintance but this guy works in Spain or rather in Catalonia and he said the Catalans has an observably different work ethic then the people in other parts of Spain (even the non-Catalan Catalans as a mix of people are living there). So it might not be just an empty meme.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 13:27:16 [Preview] No. 11514 del
>>11513
Certainly, not any idea would exist unless there was something in reality for the idea to stick onto. Knowing the reality behind the idea of work ethic would itself suggest that people who have meaningful work to do find more meaning in their work and thus develop a better work ethic, and Catalonia is an essential trade junction. I wonder if any people who move from mainland to Catalonia to work reflect the Spanish stereotype, and whether Spaniards could possibly average out to a good work ethic if people within the higher end keep moving out.

I can bet for certain that teachers and nurses have had poor morale for 40+ years, because their work ethic isn't strong enough to bring them any lavish amounts of money. I wonder how much the job pays in Catalonia and whether the traders reward the upkeep of their elderly or not.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 13:43:05 [Preview] No. 11517 del
>>11515
>2014:Catalonia to Muslims: Support Independence, Get Mega-Mosque; Qatar to Fund Third-Largest Mosque in the World
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4581/barcelona-mega-mosque

>Politicians need to realise the value of Muslim votes in the upcoming election
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-voting-general-election-islam-a7748026.html


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 13:55:34 [Preview] No. 11518 del
>>11517
>The mega-mosque in question is said to involve a 2.2 billion euro ($3 billion) project to convert a historic bullfighting stadium in Barcelona into the third-largest mosque in the world, after those in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.

That's some tasty european work ethic.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 15:09:17 [Preview] No. 11519 del
>>11517
>>11518
Build it and they will come.


Bernd 10/28/2017 (Sat) 15:26:44 [Preview] No. 11520 del
>>11510
Wouldn't Morrocans be lazy pepo too?


Bernd 10/29/2017 (Sun) 01:03:55 [Preview] No. 11530 del
This entire sham is the most cringeworthy, monumental and catastrophic failure I've ever witnessed in politics. How could the entire Catalan leadership proceed with their act without apparently even having planned it in advance? Did they expect the World Order to accept a border change in [CURRENT YEAR+72]? Did they think that their political will could be enforced without international support or violent resistance?


Bernd 10/29/2017 (Sun) 08:02:13 [Preview] No. 11533 del
Chief of police sacked. He says obey Madrid.
https://www.rt.com/news/408116-catalonia-police-chief-resigns-loyalty/
Such a shame. Meanwhile that Piuguig-guy says they should resist peacefully in a democratic way.
Actually this:
>>11530
>This entire sham is the most cringeworthy, monumental and catastrophic failure

>>11520
That's a good point actually.
I think there will be people (not necessarily Muslims) who will use the political capital the migrants give after they get the right to vote. It doesn't mean Muslim takeover or Islamization.


Bernd 10/29/2017 (Sun) 09:17:47 [Preview] No. 11534 del
>>11533
>I think there will be people (not necessarily Muslims) who will use the political capital the migrants give after they get the right to vote. It doesn't mean Muslim takeover or Islamization.
Mark my words: China.


Bernd 10/29/2017 (Sun) 17:20:41 [Preview] No. 11553 del
Tried listening to some recordings of unionists' protests (thank you RT for proofs), but besides singing I can't hear enough that I could tell what language they're using. Because in Slovenia, we had a very similar response from Serbs living in the capital (mind that they weren't even eligible voters, since Yugoslav republics had separate nationalities defined in the citizenship). Total over Slovenia that would be about 200k more votes against independence, with 1500k eligible voters.
https://www.rt.com/news/408137-pro-unity-rally-barcelona/


Bernd 10/29/2017 (Sun) 23:59:11 [Preview] No. 11557 del
damn dat international recognition


Bernd 10/30/2017 (Mon) 15:56:58 [Preview] No. 11558 del
ayy
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-RImdM8GHbY [Embed]


Bernd 10/30/2017 (Mon) 16:06:59 [Preview] No. 11559 del
>>11558
What did I just watch? Has it's funny moments tho.


Bernd 10/30/2017 (Mon) 17:02:26 [Preview] No. 11560 del
>>11559
it's been a trope recently, taking a scene from a film usually and slap flags of countries from paradox games on them, along with some extra screenshots as commentary to make the connection clearer


Bernd 10/30/2017 (Mon) 22:37:59 [Preview] No. 11575 del
>>11561
Yes.

Proofs: https://www.rt.com/news/408228-puigdemont-brussels-madrid-lawsuit/

However
>has fled the country amid rebellion charges
is merely unsubstantiated insinuations, he's in Brussels for international law business and a press conference. He probably isn't going to return though.


Bernd 11/02/2017 (Thu) 17:07:19 [Preview] No. 11632 del
He will cooperate.
https://www.rt.com/news/408558-spain-catalan-leaders-jail/
How much will they get?


Bernd 11/04/2017 (Sat) 15:46:24 [Preview] No. 11700 del
>>11699
Hold on a sec. Catalonia's gonna have new elections? They still have their parliament and autonomy? Then what's up with article 155? Or this whole thing was just a bait so a bunch of Catalan leaders could be arrested? I thought they were just tools for Madrid so the autonomy could be revoked.


Bernd 11/04/2017 (Sat) 17:39:31 [Preview] No. 11701 del
>>11700
Well Article 155 was called, after which the Spanish govt immediately called for new elections for Catalan parliament, however while banning Puigdemont (leader of EuroDemocrat party) and Rufián (leader of Catalonia Yes!), as well as most relevants in the current government, from participating.
So, effectively, Madrid is trying to have a loyalist government elected.


Bernd 11/04/2017 (Sat) 21:17:15 [Preview] No. 11703 del
>>11701
>>11702
What's Madrid's backup plan in the unlikely case that the separatists get a majority?


Bernd 11/04/2017 (Sat) 21:39:25 [Preview] No. 11704 del
>>11703
They're probably so full of themselves they don't even consider this possibility. In any case expect major shilling for separatists to boycott the elections as illegitimate.


Bernd 11/06/2017 (Mon) 06:50:35 [Preview] No. 11718 del
Arrested:
https://www.rt.com/news/408843-puigdemont-catalonia-brussels-prosecutors/
I liek how the narrative changed. Previously they said that Puigdemont travelled to Brussel for some stuff - whatever I'll look up - and now they write he fled there...
I also liek how there's no "Europe" newscategory on RT only "America" "UK" and "Russian politics".

Slowpoke Basques:
https://www.rt.com/news/408856-basques-rally-catalonia-independence/


Bernd 11/06/2017 (Mon) 07:36:23 [Preview] No. 11721 del
>>11718
https://deutsch.rt.com/inland/
https://francais.rt.com/france/
RT en Español doesn't seem to have a Spain category though.


Bernd 11/06/2017 (Mon) 16:27:26 [Preview] No. 11725 del


Bernd 11/08/2017 (Wed) 16:42:28 [Preview] No. 11782 del


Bernd 11/08/2017 (Wed) 17:10:01 [Preview] No. 11786 del


Bernd 11/08/2017 (Wed) 17:13:13 [Preview] No. 11787 del
>>11786
It is. Why don't they have their own ETA or RAF at least?


Bernd 11/12/2017 (Sun) 08:05:40 [Preview] No. 11843 del
https://www.rt.com/news/409591-eu-caricature-catalonia-puigdemont/
Das Fühl when even politicians fall for their own bullshit rhetoric about Urapeen Whaleuse.

>“Nationalisms are a poison that prevent Europe from working together,” Juncker said last Thursday
I don't get it. What would change if these people got their own country? The EU should have only say "We recognize them and accept them into the EU". And life would go on just like before.
Btw how nice they try to sell socialists as nationalist.
Also Juncker is a drunk joke why does he need to be the King Nothing? There's not one ambitious man in the whole EU who is more presentable and can be taken more seriously? Even that French grannyfucker would be better.


Bernd 11/14/2017 (Tue) 01:43:44 [Preview] No. 11887 del
An article from Hans Adam II's cousin, over a month old but still relevant:
https://www.gisreportsonline.com/opinion-catalonia-kurdistan-and-the-legitimacy-of-independence,politics,2338.html

I liked his points about so-called "international legitimacy" and its arrogant claim to the eternal moral value of 1945 borders.

Now look at the butthurt Castillian in the comments:

>Pay attention to big confusion between self-determination and secession. First, is recognized by International Law to peoples under colonial domination (ex. Western Sahara) and, within States, only to those included in an authoritarian State who doesn't allow the people to keep its traditions or religion, or participate in the political life of the country. This is clearly the case for Kurdistan. This is not at all the case for Cataluña. It has a degree of auto-government bigger than any other federate state in countries such as Germany, Italy, Austria, USA... The dialect Catalan not only is official; worse, the Catalan authorities discriminate the citizens wanting to use Castellano. A right to secession is not recognized by any democratic Constitution in the world. Our democratic States cannot support a minority of the population threatening the national unity. This kind of populist movements is contrary to European integration, its principles, and its values, one of which is the rule of law. Exceptions to the rule of law cannot be accepted in European countries if we want to keep our traditional legal orders, that gave us more than six decades in peace.

>muh populism
>(((european integration)))
>if a state allows you to partake in its political process, you can no longer desire secession
>thinking that legal orders and not geopolitical factors are the main reasons for Western Europe's peace


Bernd 11/14/2017 (Tue) 07:39:13 [Preview] No. 11889 del
>>11887
>The dialect Catalan not only is official; worse, the Catalan authorities discriminate the citizens wanting to use Castellano.
Ha, reminds me how Serbs are recently pushing to be recognised as a minority which would allow them to use Serbian officially.


Bernd 11/15/2017 (Wed) 18:42:06 [Preview] No. 11918 del
>>11887
That article was great. It's super how he highlights the fact that in the end legitimacy will be guaranteed by the arms of the nation who wants independence. It doesn't matter what the powers say.

>A right to secession is not recognized by any democratic Constitution in the world.
That would be quite a satire finding such lines in a Constitution as: the citizens have the right to declare independence and found their own countries.


Bernd 11/19/2017 (Sun) 19:23:29 [Preview] No.12024 del
EU again stated that they side with Spain:

>“As president of the Commission, I support the position of the Spanish government. And do you know why? Because I am in favor of who respects the law,” Juncker told the Spanish daily El País in an interview. “The EU is based on the rule of law, and what my Catalan friends have done is the opposite: violating the law.”

>Juncker warned Catalans against secessionism. “History teaches that one should not cultivate regional caprices and oppose them to national identity,” he told El País. “That is not the way to fight for one’s identity.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/juncker-reaffirms-support-for-rajoy-over-catalonia/


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 00:03:25 [Preview] No.12041 del
>>11918
Hans-Adam II originally wanted to go full libertarian and allow even individual secession. See this article about the Liechtenstein model:
https://jacobitemag.com/2017/08/04/why-liechtenstein-works-self-determination-and-market-governance/

Separatism is one of the most striking areas where democracy and international law in their current form contradicts its own premises.
If a state annexes a territory without the consent of its population and then gives them political representation, it faces worldwide condemnation. But when an established state has a region whose population desires independence, the global establishment backs the central state with overwhelming force. Why is it that the consent of a region's population is valid in one case, but null in another?
Furthermore, if an autocrat imposing his will upon a population is an imoral situation, why is the imposition of the will of a more populous region over a less populous one moral?

>>12024
Rulecucked.


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 00:09:36 [Preview] No.12042 del
>>12041
contradict their own premises


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 00:21:42 [Preview] No.12043 del
>>11887
>Now look at the butthurt
Sounds to me you're butthurt because somebody was allowed to post it, and now you have to do damage control. It just puts some things in context.

Why even have nations if everybody who earns a cent more than their neighbor has the right to secede? You're just a roadless ancap. Secessions do happen but it's a failure to rights that they do.

>>12041
Conservatism and stability.


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 02:01:42 [Preview] No.12044 del
>>12043
>you're butthurt because somebody was allowed to post it, and now you have to do damage control.
What damage control? I dislike both Catalans and Castillians and don't have much of a commitment to either side.

>It just puts some things in context.
Besides stating an outright lie (that Catalan is a dialect of Castillian), the Castillian's comment adds little to nothing to the discussion and merely repeats established ideas.

>Why even have nations if everybody who earns a cent more than their neighbor has the right to secede?
In fact, that's a possible logical development of consistently applying the principle of popular consent over which democracy is built, ands its result -territorial fragmentation into hundreds of city-states- has been pondered by several people throughout intellectual history.

Both Prince Michael and the Castillian framed their arguments within the context of democratic thought. But can the unity of a state be defended in other terms (which, thus, can override popular consent)? Of course, and the most popular alternative is through nationalistic thought. But even nationalim has its contradictions when dealing with the problem of separatism.

The same arguments that justify why a nation-state should exist and preserve its identity when pressured by globalism -that all cultures have a right to preserve themselves and cannot be supressed by other forces and so on- also apply to a region resisting the centralizing forces of a nation-state that wishes to impose its cosmopolitan culture. When a nationalistic Spaniard argues against globalist (EU and other) cultural and political influence over his homeland, he will say that Spaniards have their own peculiar historical and cultural bonds that cannot be merged into a broader "European" mongrel culture. But a Catalan could say the exact same things about Catalan bonds that cannot be broken and merged into a Castillian-centered mongrel culture! The same principle that establishes why a nation-state's culture cannot be assimilated by a globalist entity can also be used to justify a region wanting to preserve its culture from a nation-state's assimilation desires.

It is also necessary to be pointed out that, although regional identity is a completely natural and organic development, the identity of large and diverse nation-states such as France and Spain is much more complicated and, to an extent, artificial: just look at how far France went to eradicate its regional languages and dialects and impose Parisian standards.

>Conservatism and stability.
Pragmatism is a reason to want to maintain the 1945 borders forever and ever, but alone it cannot explain away the problems with democratic thought.


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 07:53:37 [Preview] No.12047 del
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>>12043
>if everybody who earns a cent more than their neighbor has the right to secede?

That is a good example that democracy as idealistic concept has multiple flaws. If some region overwhelmingly voted for independence, it looks pretty democratic: people had will to change the government etc. But if all country voted that region must not be independent, and it is also a democratic thing. First situation allows people to self-govern themselves and prevents oppression of minority, second allows majority to do something with wrong minority. Both situations contradict each other and there is no solution, because sticking to law isn't an answer - laws are created by people, not by some godlike entity, and they are imperfect by design, so must be constantly changed. So, why people in large region must use imperfect (for them) law that makes them to be completely controlled from others?

Extreme variant of majority rule allows democratic purges of minorities, extreme minority allows everyone to became independent.

This can only be fixed with restriction of democracy, but common opinion now is "democracy is sacred", so this is dead end. Modern West just uses a hypocritical position when only some privileged minorities can impose their will on masses, but other minorities can't. But there is no other way, because people happily living with each other in fully democratic society is utopian concept.


Bernd 11/20/2017 (Mon) 18:41:05 [Preview] No.12055 del
>>12041
>Hans-Adam II originally wanted to go full libertarian and allow even individual secession.
That guy has some sense of humor.

What's gonna happen in Nigeria?

>>12047
>Modern West just uses a hypocritical position
It feels like those in the position of power always just improvise and pull shit out of their asses when things happen and they should do something. They don't know what to do, they are bunch of clueless fucks who just want to put large sums into the pockets, write their name onto the pages of history, live a luxurious and envied life and they have no idea how they should behave as real leaders and how to resolve sensitive situations. Their first reaction is stalling and insisting to keep the status quo as the current situation is perfect for them.



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